This is the Drive Time Debrief, episode 215.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Amanda. I'm Laura. And I'm Kendra. And today on Drive Time Debrief, we are talking about a topic many physicians experience quietly and often feel very alone in. And that is divorce. We're joined by Dr. Karen Sethi Walker, a pediatric intensivist by training who eventually transitioned into clinical vaccine development.
Now she's a certified divorce coach who has lived this personally and now helps other physicians navigate divorce with clarity, less conflict, and a strong focus on protecting the kids, which we can all appreciate. This is a very tender topic, and so our goal today is to make this conversation feel honest, grounded, and genuinely helpful for anyone who's contemplating divorce or already in the thick of it. I know for me when I've had traumatic things happen, probably some of the worst things were that I felt like I was the only one who was going through this. So normalizing conversations and knowing that other people have gone before you and are going through it along with you, I think is really helpful.
So if that's you, just know you are not alone, and that's why we're talking about this today. Hi Karen. Thanks for joining us. We're so happy to have you on and we are excited about this conversation. So first thing we wanna know is many physicians maybe delay or even avoid divorce because of fear. Lots of different fears.
Fear of financial fallout, fear of negatively affecting the kids. That's a big one. Fear of career disruption, home life disruption. Maybe like they're so overwhelmed already, which is probably what's impacting the relationship, and they're afraid they can't handle one more thing. So when you look back, what were your biggest fears going in and which ones actually mattered?
First, it's a very, very scary place when you're starting to think about divorce or you are going through a divorce. It is frightening.
It is extremely isolating. And I know for myself, I felt like I was the only one and I was very embarrassed and ashamed. And even though I knew like 50% of the country is divorced, I just felt like I was by myself, especially, you know, when we're working full-time, we're going in and out. Like you don't really have a lot of time for yourself.
And I think the biggest thing I was worried about was like, how was I gonna do it alone? I think most of us as physicians have very, very stressful schedules. We can do almost anything, but the idea of having to do it by ourselves is overwhelming. I know that was one thing and the other thing I was worried about was the financial repercussions.
Especially because I hadn't finished paying off my medical school debt. You know, how was I gonna make this work? And I think for me, those were the two most important and scary things. And it turns out that with some planning, and I think some good counsel, I was able to transition actually quite easily.
That's really great and I'm sure very reassuring to hear, especially coming from someone who's on this side of it. Physicians are trained to push through hard things. Does that work against us during divorce and what is so unique about physician divorces? Well, I think physicians particularly serve others before they serve themselves.
And so oftentimes our cup is empty because no one's filling it up, especially if we're not feeling supported at home. And you know, I think that because of this altruism, this approach of always caring for others, sometimes we forget to take care of ourselves. So I think that actually does hurt us.
I think we stay in things sometimes when we shouldn't. And I think that a lot of us feel that staying together, even if we're not getting along, because we're in one home, a nuclear family, regardless of the fact of whether we're home, if it's high conflict, it's still better than, you know, breaking up the family for the kids.
And I think that is actually more detrimental than staying.
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think a lot of us as physicians, that pain point really has to get pretty painful before we do anything because the programming we received through med school and residency is shove it all down and you should be able to handle this and you should be able to make this work.
And you should. You should, you should. And here at The Whole Physician, we think should's a dirty word. So it carries with it a lot of shame. And so I think just like you said, you felt scared, but you also felt ashamed. You were embarrassed, even though in the big scheme of things it was the first step you took, maybe just to finally have your own back, to really stand up for yourself and do what was right for you.
What would you say are some common mistakes that well-intentioned physicians might make during divorce? I think assuming that your divorce is the same as your peer's divorce. I think that a lot of us take advice and, don't even take my advice.
You have to do what's true to you. But I think taking advice to, you know, get a shark attorney and start squirreling away money and being deceitful or deceptive, like how you start that divorce sets the tone for the divorce, right? So like, if you can engage thoughtfully and respectfully and be very upfront, like this is what's important to me, is that we focus on our kids.
And I always tell my clients like, this is your tagline. When something gets hard and they start, you know, escalating the temperature, like, what are you gonna come back to? Hey, we may not see eye to eye on this, but let's do what's best for the kids. And that's what you gotta come back to.
And I think that sometimes we see red, we feel slighted and angry, and so sometimes you make decisions out of that rage. You get the high conflict lawyer who doesn't even want to mediate, doesn't wanna talk about how you can do this outside the court.
And I think people capitalize on that vulnerability, right? They see that you're angry, and so you have to really simmer down. You have to surround yourself with people who are not gonna throw gasoline on the fire, and you know your best friends, they can throw gasoline, they're your best friends, but you also have to tell them, hey, I don't want you to rev me up.
I want you to keep me grounded and here are my values when it comes to this. Can you bring me back to that? And hopefully your friends can do that for you. But your therapist can also do that for you as well, but I think that to me is probably what I see time and time again.
I think you're describing something really selfless, actually. Because I can imagine in that situation the anger would make you wanna go nuclear, especially, you know, depending on the situation, if you'd been betrayed or something, or if you were the one who wasn't asking for the divorce.
So I think you're modeling something really mature and beautiful and keeping those kids at the forefront. Those are the people you're trying to protect. Absolutely. Absolutely. Talking about kids, guilt around the kids can sometimes keep physicians stuck for years.
From both your pediatric and your coaching lenses, what are the things that actually help children most when their parents are divorcing? Yeah, I think that the first thing is minimizing conflict, so I think, you know, understanding that some kids are coming from a high conflict household where two parents are fighting all the time, and just removing them from that is gonna be a positive impact.
I'm sure you've heard of kids who, after their parents get divorced, they're like, oh, thank goodness. I mean, I know adults who've said that, like, I waited my whole life for my parents to get divorced. It makes a huge impact. So I think, you know, with that caveat, the second thing I would say that makes a big difference is how you communicate with your co-parent, and
I think you need to not worry about having the same rules at each other's houses and doing things the same way. A lot of people get really hung up on that. Well, they don't do things the way I would or they've never cared for them the way I have. What really matters is that you hold the same boundaries you did before, like there's no screen time on x, y, and z days and you don't talk to me like that.
I think a lot of us out of guilt, I hear, and I say us because I'm guilty of it too, is like we overcompensate, we buy them things or take them places or, you know, allow them to do things that you normally wouldn't have allowed, but that is actually what hurts them. They need predictability, routine, dependability, and if you can align with the co-parent on just those basic things, schedules, getting to bed at the same time.
Right. And you know, and I say that too, you may not be able to control your co-parent. Right. But if they come to your house and everything is the same every time, that for them is a model of stability. And there is also data that shows you only need one parent, one stable home to make things okay.
So I always think we can't control others. We can only control ourselves. So if you can remember that, then I think you have a very strong chance that your children are gonna go through this without a bump, but it really is how you carry yourself. I love that. I grew up in a very high conflict home and I was one of those people. I remember being a kid begging my mom to get divorced.
And what I would say is, if you're thinking in your mind, you fight with your spouse and would it be better to be divorced? That's not what we're saying. Conflict is normal in marriage. I think we're talking about high conflict situations where the environment just feels pretty toxic, and sometimes it's even hard to breathe, the tension's so thick.
So you had other challenges to navigate during your divorce as a South Asian female physician. You navigated cultural expectations, family pressure, all while dealing with your professional identity all at the same time. What was uniquely hard about that and what helped you trust yourself anyway?
That's a very hard question. I'm of Indian descent and divorce is taboo even now. I mean, even though it is more and more common, it is a source of shame, especially for first generation immigrants, which a lot of our parents are. And I'll be honest, most of my anger was directed
towards my family because I felt like, oh, they were so ashamed, and nobody gets married to get divorced, none of us do. Right. But I had to practice a lot of forgiveness and, you know, my therapist said to me like, they are loving you in the way they know how to love. And this was not normal for them.
And so two things can be true. Like you can still love them and be angry with them. And it took me a long time to get to that point. But to go back to your question, I think how I navigated it is I really did find people of the same, you know, origin to talk to. I also just had to accept that they'll come around and ultimately when they see that you are happier and healthier, why wouldn't they. You know, I think it's just hard for them to swallow that idea.
So for physicians from cultures or families where divorce is stigmatized, what would you say to someone who feels like they're letting everyone down by choosing to get divorced? I would say keep your circle small. You know, I would say don't tell too many people too many things because one, you don't want anyone to weaponize it against you, and two, it is your story, you know, and you need to protect your peace.
That might mean taking a little break from people for a little bit. It might mean really creating real distance, sometimes it means not seeing family members, not just not talking to them. And then also having a strategy that when it comes up in conversation, if you choose to continue to engage, which you know, you have to sometimes, how are you gonna
navigate around that conversation. And usually it's just not acknowledging it if that's not something you wanna talk about. But I think the key here is not expecting people to validate your decision. This is your decision. Hopefully they do validate it, but you don't need their validation. You don't need their permission, and you don't need their acceptance.
I think you need to know that you're gonna be okay and sometimes it's finding that strength in yourself. And as I mentioned before, and I'm gonna say it again, therapy is very important because you do need somebody to kind of be that third party unbiased view to kind of keep you grounded, your anchor.
I also think a divorce coach, if that's something that people like to use, is like this unbiased person that you can text and be like, this just happened, what do I do? And they're gonna give you that feedback that you need, that's in line with the values of who you choose, right?
Speaking of that, one of the things that you do with your clients is to help them reestablish their lives after divorce,
which sometimes I think it's hard to even picture when you're going through it. So what does it look like to reestablish your life after divorce and what are some of the first steps? If someone's there right now, what are some first steps that they could do? I think if you're thinking about divorce and it's not a slam dunk, I would say take your time.
I would really like, take your time and map out what it looks like if you do go down the path of divorce. What do your finances look like? What's your childcare gonna look like? Is your employer gonna understand? And I think a lot of us do have that luxury
because a lot of people are mulling it over for a long time and building up the strength and figuring out how they wanna do it. And I would say, if you can do it that way, a lot of times you can actually have a low conflict divorce. You can start having a conversation in roundabout ways with your partner, with your husband or wife, to see like, are they on the same page as you?
And maybe you guys can do this in a peaceful manner. I think if you're at the point where you are going through a divorce, I think you can't make rash decisions. So the key here is not to make emotional decisions, which is almost impossible in the situation that we're in. So, you know, having good counsel, like, hey, I'm about to buy a house.
Do you think you need to buy that house? Like, is this the right house for you? So not making big decisions. I think getting a financial planner if you don't already have one. I think having a 0% APR credit card for a little while, and so these credit cards, if you have good credit, can give you like 18 to 24 months of a buffer. Only buy what you can pay back, you know, but that does give you some freedom as you kind of recoup. I would say the other thing is if finances are tight, it's coming up with an alternative income strategy for yourself.
A lot of this needs to be done after because you don't want to disclose additional revenue sources prior to divorce, because that could be part of your divorce settlement. So you do have to be very mindful about how you negotiate.
If you're gonna get a promotion, wait till you get divorced, you know, any big changes in income, if you know you're gonna get demoted or you're gonna go part-time, all that should be done prior to the divorce. Those are a few things I would think about. That's so practical.
And you do coach physicians through divorce. So when someone works with you, what's the benefit? I guess, tell me the difference between what you talk with your therapist versus what you do with your divorce coach. And if somebody's listening, realizing, oh, I do need a divorce coach, how do they get in touch with you?
Well, first they can work with any divorce coach and I would urge you to at least consult with a few. I know they offer consultations. I know I do, 30 minute free consultation, but I think what all divorce coaches really offer is the practical aspects of divorce. So there are several different divorce coaches.
I took a divorce coaching certification. It's recognized by the American Bar Association. It was a six month course. And they give us a lot of background on the legal stuff so that you can understand like where people are, you know, even in a high conflict divorce or when they have difficult situations, managing with their children, and they have guardian ad litems and things like that.
So, you know, it gives us a little bit of a background. But what I like to say is a therapist is gonna help you understand how you got here. Like that's the work you should do, is like you made a series of decisions. You know, divorce is not one sided. Usually it takes two to tango. And maybe there was an opportunity for you to learn how you perceive love or what you think a healthy relationship looked like and now how it's evolved.
That journey. My job is to help you through the immediate divorce. So when I work with my clients, I learn about their spouse, you know, what's important to them, what's not important to them. We talk about what they anticipate their fears are going into the divorce and we do a lot of role playing. Like, how would you answer this? And you know, I'll help them with rephrasing things, we come up with taglines, we try to learn how to diffuse situations that might be stressful in that moment. So giving them those tools. I will be honest, I really do only take on low conflict clients because I think that for me is in line with my values and I think it's easiest for me to counsel and work with people who understand that.
And that's okay if that's not the way you're gonna approach it, to each their own, but those are the clients that I take. I also steer them to some, you know, different podcasts. But really what I say is like, I'm your impartial best friend. So people text me all the time, I help diffuse situations in real time, help with responding to emails to their
spouse. Co-parenting is a big conversation. We go through parenting plans. I read marital separation agreements and I'll say, hey, you might wanna include this. Like, really making it robust. And one of the other things is I do a lot of financial coaching. I'm not a financial planner, but I know how to, you know, get them from A to B.
What are the things they need to know? Questions about their loans and things like that. So I help them plan and strategize for when they meet the lawyer or they meet the financial planner so they can reduce the costs of those because you've come up with a series of questions so that it's not like a three hour consultation, it's just an hour.
Nice. So as we wrap, if you could whisper one message of encouragement directly into the ear of someone driving home right now, maybe who's stuck in confusion or fear about considering a separation or their impending separation, or in the thick of their separation, what message of encouragement would you whisper to them?
You are gonna be okay. I promise. You know, take one day at a time. Be kind to yourself. Give yourself grace. Do not be ashamed. How we react to where we are is how we are gonna pave the rest of our life. And so, you know, take a minute, grieve, and realize that there's also some data to show it takes about three years till you get back to who you are. And so if you know that, it's a long way from where you are right now, but every day is gonna get a little bit better. There's gonna be setbacks, but remember that there are lots of other people who are doing just fine.
Thank you so much, Karen, for being on the podcast today. I know this is gonna impact a lot of people in our listening audience, and we are so thankful that you took time out to share
not only, you know, probably raw parts of your story, but really just in hopes to connect with our colleagues that may be on the suffering end right now. If you found this conversation helpful, the best way to support us is to subscribe. So click the button now and leave us a five star rating.
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