Amanda: Hey guys. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Amanda.
Laura: I'm Laura.
Kendra: And I'm Kendra.
Amanda: And today is a very big day. Mark it down. This is one of Laura's favorite days. I'm gonna let her take it away.
Laura: Oh my gosh, yes, you guys. I am so, so excited to introduce you to Tony Overbay, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, podcast host of The Virtual Couch and my personal favorite podcast Waking Up to Narcissism. He also hosts an awesome podcast with his daughter, Murder on the Couch, which honestly I listened to; it was so good, but it was too advanced for me. I think I see too much actual crime at work--I like, I was like, can't can't.
Tony: That's fair. Okay.
Laura: Too scary. So, anyway, he is an ultra marathoner, husband and dad, and just a great person. I just met him today, but I, but I know this from listening to his podcast. I first heard Tony in an interview on a leadership podcast where he was discussing narcissism, and I was like, oh, I gotta go find out what this podcast is about.
And I was immediately hooked. Went right on over to Waking Up to Narcissism. I think I've listened to almost all of those episodes. And they have been, like, I'm not exaggerating when I say this. They've been transformational for me. Truly. So, for those of us who grew up in homes with substance abuse, personality disorders, or really any level of dysfunction. So yeah, probably all of us.
His, his podcast is just transformational. It really is. That's not an exaggeration. And I've shared it with lots of people, in particular, some of my colleagues at work, and they're just like, whoa, mind blown. So Tony, welcome. We're so happy to have you.
Tony: Okay, thank you.
Boy, the introduction is always the most awkward part, right? Because you put all the nice things in your bio and then you start to buy into it yourself and you realize, man, if these guys really knew me or figured me out, that whole imposter syndrome thing, because you're real doctors. I mean, that's, I'm intimidated today.
And cuz I, you know, if somebody actually calls me a doctor, I have to go, okay, do I, do I correct them? Cuz it is kind of fun to hear that. But you're real doctors and if somebody says, is there a doctor on a plane? Then you, you actually have to do things right. We do, but that's okay. We're all humans. just, just own it. You're, you're doing really great work. We, we appreciate you. That is one thing that we try to work on as we all get to shine. So you being a doctor doesn't take away from me being a doctor. Vice versa. And so you get to be the amazing person that you are and own it.
Look at you guys, I'll build me up. And, and to be fair, Amanda, I'm actually not a doctor, so that's the fun part when somebody does call me one. But so I always think, okay, if they write it on my check though, then you know, I make a photocopy of it and then I hope that my bank takes it. And Tony, that, that's been kind of funny.
Yeah, you are a doctor of narcissism. Okay. Okay. Narcissism knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. It's an honorary degree for sure. At least Laura's is giving you for sure. So I'll take that, those honorary degrees. Thank you. All right. Yes. I'm, I'm, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you wound up becoming a therapist?
Yeah. So, and I'll try to, to make this brief, but I did a decade in computer software and boy, and this actually starts to play into the whole concepts of emotional immaturity and the way we show up as humans and in relationships. But I jumped into that career and I did not, I didn't actually know I could enjoy a career.
So I'm a, you know, I'm years into that career and it was the. Well, this is what you do and you grind it out and then you live for the evenings and weekends and, but I didn't enjoy it. And so sometimes when I like to talk about the concepts of, of a healthy ego versus pathological, defensive narcissism, I like to give this example of my days in the computer industry.
I was so insecure. That I had to, you know, I had to put out this facade that I was, that I was special, that I knew everything, not knowing that I was putting out there, you know, for people that actually knew things. They were, they were aware that I didn't know the, you know, the intricate intricacies of of computer programming and where the primary defect list was on a magnetic optical drive or whatever.
But I would say things like, oh, I know these things cause I have to be special. And so then, you know, one, one small pin prick would deflate my fragile ego, and then all of a sudden I'm into this defensive mode of how, how dare you? And so then when I find the career that I actually like as a therapist, and all of a sudden, oh, I love this and I, I eat it up and I wanna know more.
And so healthy ego is, you know, based off of things that you actually do or your real accomplishments. And I love the concept of where the more that you actually then realize the things that you do know. Then what comes along with that is I can take ownership of the things I don't know, and then that starts to build some trust and relationships and you get to say things like, oh, I don't know.
Instead of, well, I bet this is the case, you know, that kind of thing. So there's my tangent number one, but, but I so I was doing this career. I didn't really care for, I felt this. Almost calling, you know, that, that, that old cliche to help people. And I would do I would speak at trade shows and I would find myself getting through the presentation and then just interacting with people coming to the booth or the people setting up the booth.
And so, so I was that guy. And and then I also wrote a humor column and a newspaper for about a decade. And when I started having, when my wife started having kids there were a lot of dad books. There was a Paul Riser fatherhood book, and there were a couple others that were just funny compilations of.
Of fatherhood stories. So I was putting those in my column and then I thought, oh, I would, I think it'd be fun to write a book. And then I think I, I. And I know we'll talk about this later. I confabulated a narrative that I had to have letters behind my name to write a book. So then I thought I should probably go back to grad school.
I'll get my master's degree and I'll just write books. And then I go back to grad school and I fall in love with the program and actually get good grades, which I didn't really do very well in in my undergrad. And so I realized if you like something, you do want to know more about it. So then I just started slowly but surely getting into being a therapist.
I was still doing computer things for a long time. I was doing part-time therapy and then slowly but surely, I just started to make therapy more of what I do, and then that was the best decision I ever made in my entire life. So I love everything about it. So now I write and podcasts and speak and see a bunch of clients, and I just, I love it.
So, so that's kind of the, I was gonna say short version, but not so short. But I, I hope that that answers the question. That was great. That was perfect. So now let's get into it. What sparked your interest in narcissism and inspired you to start the podcast? Okay, so thi this is where I think things, then there's this joke or cliche that the therapists get into therapy to work on themselves.
And I thought, well, not me, I just, I just enjoy this. Or again, just wanna write books. And so then fast forward a few years and, and I've been seeing more and more clients and then I really did feel this calling to work with men. And then my joke is that then when I was when I started working in the field that you learned that men don't come into counseling.
So then I thought, okay, well I guess we will change the change courses. But I was doing my internship with a nonprofit for my church. And so they handed me people that were struggling with what they would say, pornography addiction and faith crisis and things like that. So now I get.
Guys coming in and even though pornography addiction isn't a real diagnosis, but you know, there's like impulse control disorder, compulsive behaviors. But I get people coming in and then they're, you know, they're coming in with a lot of shame, which I think, Kendra, you did that episode on shame, which you wanna hear what narcissism looks like though, a little bit.
I, when I was going to start binging on your guys stuff, I listen to that. I'm like, oh, I wonder if this is about me. You know, and then it's Brene Brown. That's okay though. I, I was okay with that. But, but, so then I'm getting guys coming in and it's like, okay, porn. And then I, and I was saying, okay, you know, I did, I did a, a little bit of time where knock it off, you know, hadn't thought of that one seeing a hymn or do some pushups and then, you know, those behavioral things.
And that really wasn't. Very helpful. And so then I started kind of taking my own approach and I started looking at it as I felt like people turned to any unhealthy coping mechanism when they didn't feel connected in their marriage or their parenting, their faith, their career, their health. So then I think, okay, well I need to go find ways to deal with all these, so I go find a couples modality, emotionally focused therapy. And because I never was gonna be a couples therapist and I find a nice individual modality, this acceptance and commitment therapy, that was a game changer for me personally. And this parenting technique called the nurtured heart and faith crisis. I'm diving on valor stages of faith and, and so all these things, and then, and then I start getting some success.
People are coming in and saying, but what about the porn? I'm like, right, let's get you back to, are you, you know, be a better husband, be a better father. So now I'm doing couples work and I went from. I would hate if I saw two couples on my schedule to now I'm seeing 20, 25 couples a week. And so now that I have actual tools and I, and I'm enjoying the couples work, it, some of them just didn't hit right.
You know, you could hand somebody tools and then they just it's like drinking from a fountain in the desert and they're this, oh, it's is so great. And I. Have all my now cliches of people don't know what they don't know. Nobody comes from the factory with the right tools to communicate all those things sitting with discomfort and validation, all the therapy things.
But then sometimes it just didn't work. And then the one person, the, I mean, and, and often it's the guy, I mean there's also women that fall into this category, but the guy would, would get in there and continually tell me, you know, hang on, old man. Like you'll throw those tools away when you hear how crazy she is.
You know, and, and then she's coming in and saying, I, I must be the crazy one. Cuz I keep trying and, and the, the goalposts keep moving, but it's gotta be me. And so I start seeing that dynamic and then and then I think, okay, this is, this is starting to get very consistent. And then I start, so I start the Virtual Couch podcast.
This is seven years ago and it's episode four. I think I'm just. So I'm trying to get anybody that will come on that has a book or that sort of thing, you know? And and now I, I get somebody's publicist every day trying to get 'em on and, you know, now that like, oh, I'll send them to my assistant. But at that time, I'm begging people to come on and I get an author named Tina Fuller with a book called, it's My Turn, and it's about grown up with a narcissistic mother.
And I'm, and I feel like I, I won't ever allow myself to go back and listen. I don't like hearing myself, but I've always wondered if I go back in that one, you know, am I like, I can only imagine me going And then what did you do? I. Oh no, I, I, you know, and almost like it's personal therapy or that sort of thing.
And so then she and I ended up talking a little bit off, off the air. And so then I start just digging into narcissism a little bit more. And then all of a sudden you go through that period, where is everyone a narcissist? You know, my wife said that I was calling everybody one. And I'm like, but, but what if they are?
You know, and then I do the whole, wait, I am, and then honest to goodness, this is where then it's like, oh, I am doing this career to fix myself and, and maybe I think I'm grateful for it. And then I start looking at. Oh, I, I have these narcissistic traits and tendencies. I'm not a narcissist, I don't think, but I'm, you know, I've got these traits and tendencies.
So then I start putting that out into the Virtual Couch Podcast, and I get my own clients and then now I start getting traction and people are emailing me and, and on regular basis, and they're saying, Hey. And it's hilarious how you talk about your traits and tendencies. I'm like, well, is it though?
You know? And then I realized that all the therapy I'm doing and sitting in with sessions, I'm like, oh crap, I do that. You know? And then I'm going home to my wife, do I do this? And, you know, she'd say maybe a little bit. And then I'm like, how dare you? I'm like, oh my gosh, that's that fragile ego. I'm, I'm wanting to gaslight her now.
You know? And, and so it's this journey that I'm so grateful for. To, to be a part of, or I would be a total jerk at this point. And so then, so then I start thinking about the Waking Up the Narcissism podcast. This is four or five years into it. And and so then, and I, honest to goodness at one point, I swear I was gonna call it like narcissist in recovery, but then I thought I don't like that one.
But I was very intentional about waking up to narcissism cuz it's waking up to the narcissistic. Traits, tendencies in your relationship with maybe your spouse or your parent or your adult child, or your religious institution or your boss or anything, or it's those, those traits and tendencies within yourself.
And I'll take a break here and, and, and a breath and, and I promise, but then, so then I very intentionally, like eight or nine episodes in, I do one on Are you the narcissist? Cuz that's what I keep everybody saying. Am I? And first of all I say if you're even asking yourself, if you are, you're not.
Cuz then, you know, you, you wouldn't even be thinking about that. You would just be a narcissist. And then I, and so then I lay out that narcissistic personality disorders, I don't know, two to 4% of the population if you really look at the diagnostic criteria and, and so we can't. Be calling everybody a narcissist, if that's the percentage.
So then I, I introduced this concept that I was working with in my office of emotional immaturity and how we're all emotionally immature until we're not. And if you're given the right tools, that's where you really see, okay, is this just something that we didn't know, that we didn't know? Or is this person incapable of, you know, playing in the same sandbox?
And then that just, and now here we are. so there's the, there's how that all happened. Well, that's a perfect transition because we all learned about narcissistic personality disorder and psychiatry rotations and psychology classes. What did you learn? Like, I wanna know so bad, like what is the medical community?
How, yeah, what do you guys look at that as? I mean, it's just like bad. That bad, that guy's a narcissist. I don't know what to do about it, but like then I ask, but like, you know, you can't operate anything like that. Right. Lobotomy? Is that where that comes in or no? Yeah. Right. Well, they do teach us that personality disorders are the, are far more difficult than like a chemical imbalance sort of Okay.
Thing to try to treat. That, that's just kind of ingrained and yeah. I mean that's where it left off in our, my human behavior classes. Like wow, this is just kind of how people are, It didn't go any step further. So there you go. Did you guys Right. But I also think it's not talked about because of the defensiveness.
Just like you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Like it is so defensive, like as soon as you even sniff it out or like even go, just like shut down because it's so rampant. Well, that's, and Kendra, when, when you say rampant, this is where I'm, so, I was so pumped to talk to you guys, and I want you on all of my podcasts and I want us to be best friends.
I want you to come on, on a regular basis, but I, I work with a lot of. Of people and, and the more that my podcast has gotten out there, it's the real special people at times that wanna meet with me. You know, at that point it's like, no, I want the best and I'll pay whatever. And you don't understand, you know, I, I would like to meet with you, please.
I've listened to your podcast. Right? Yeah. And that's why I wanna say, well, okay, I get 20. 20 of those a day, you know, and they're like, okay, well money's not. I mean, it's, you see the narcissism and the people that are trying to then meet with me so that then they can say that they're meeting with the narcissist expert, which that's fascinating, but I remember I also get the pathologically kind people that are in your field, and so mm-hmm.
It, I still remember this so much where one time I was talking to a person and they work in, in a, in a or, and they were talking about, Working with this really narcissistic surgeon and we're talking about these things, and I, and I remember saying, Hey, but is that the one place though that you would like that narcissism?
And then this person, and it made so much sense. They said, well, no, because they're not gonna, he's like, they don't take ownership of if something does go wrong. And I'm like, oh my gosh. That's exactly right. So they may have that confidence that, oh, I can do all, but then, but then if I, something happens, well, that wasn't my fault.
You know, what was I supposed to do? And I thought, whoa, that's mind blowing. So I wanna know all of your opinions on that. Maybe, I dunno if it's today or in my podcast or both, or, but that's why I like what you're saying, Kendra, if it's so rampant, it's like, I, I can't imagine what that's like. My experience in the second year of med school was I had everything and, and my, per my, my own personal one was like, do I have schizoid personality disorder?
Like, what am I, I, or do I just like, maybe not like crazy, maybe people all the time. I dunno. Maybe. Tell me more about that. Yeah. This is in, it turns out this is an intervention. Thank you, Kendra and Laura. Amanda. Oh.
Got me on this thing. Okay. Alright. Re redirect me back. Okay. That's fair. Okay, so narcissistic personality disorder. Yeah. But you're saying that there's a spectrum of narcissism. Are you able to explain to us what Mar narcissism is or emotional immaturity is for the Yeah, absolutely. And then and here's I make no secrets about my, my adult A D H D diagnosis.
So spectrum of narcissism. I mean, that does sound like a great name for an alternative band. I mean, I just wanna kind of put that out there. Yeah. Right. I would. Okay. So, so, so, so here's where so narcissistic personality disorders, like I'm saying, I wanted to make this intentional move that that isn't, It isn't as much of the population as, as we think it is, or if you listen to social media or that sort of thing.
So, so I really say, okay, so narcissism or emotional immaturity. If I go, oh, go ahead and look at it, and it's such a mouthful, and I want to come up with my own IP around what a person who is maybe has narcissistic personality disorder, narcissistic traits and tendencies, or is an emotionally immature person.
So there's the mouthful. That person it's kinda like this complex set of, of defense mechanisms. And so they're, they're a reaction to somebody growing up in an environment where there wasn't enough support that. For stable self-esteem. So then that person develops a reliance on external validation to even exist to, to make themselves feel better.
So they always need that supply or somebody to engage with in order to just have a sense of self. So, you know, they, they can't sit with their own. Self or ego or, you know, because it gets uncomfortable because they never had a chance to develop a sense of self growing up because it's typically been this modeled behavior of watching their parent not take ownership of anything.
Or, or if they did do something that. Humans do make a mistake or get in trouble, then they really paid for it. So then you often hear this concept of that gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism. So then, so if you kind of look at it that way, then you've got this. So, so if they grow up with this unstable environment, they need external validation to even feel like they exist, that's gonna lead to people having a lower amount of empathy because they can't sit with somebody else's feelings or emotions because it makes 'em uncomfortable. And so they gotta get rid of that discomfort. And so that's where I feel like you've got this spectrum of emotional immaturity where if they weren't modeled it, then, then, you know, it's hard to then say, okay, then they're incapable of it because, and that, and that kind of, and I'll go into something in a minute that I think is important too.
But I feel like that's the part where back to the podcast, I, I was very, I made a very big intentional move, not only to the name, but then also I feel like when somebody reads about narcissism it, it might, and I, I over-exaggerate this for humor, I think, but it's they read the word and then it's like, the book says, don't finish the paragraph, pack your things and leave.
Like it'll never get better. And then I realize, oh, and actually working with human beings that have feelings and emotions, kids, you know, rights of passage, social capital groups, financial ties that. Nobody can do that. So now you're already telling the person who is starting to go, oh my gosh, this is a thing.
And then they, it, it gives them more shame. And so you got this pathologically nice and kind person that's in this, you know, almost this breakup resistant relationship who just read, you gotta get out. So then it's like, that's uncomfortable. So it can't, it can't be them. It must be me. Then. So then I get the people coming to me and they're like, what can I do?
So then I, I say, I've gotta meet somebody where they're at. And so then And so then I, you know, I kind of initially developed these and I don't have cool names for these and I, I need to, but these five things or ways of interacting with people in, in narcissistic or emotionally mature relationships, which is, is it's number one, is raise your emotional baseline, which is self-care.
Cause you gotta get yourself in a good position to even be able to handle all this thing, these things around you. And and Quick tangent. So emotional baseline theory is one that I made up, I don't know, 15, 12, 13 years ago. And it was with working with a doctor that I loved working with who was in a, now I realize horribly narcissistic relationship with his wife who wanted nothing to do with anything that he could, would talk about.
But please continue to bring large sums of money in, but don't talk about it. Do more around the house. And you know, so he was coming to therapy and he would wait. Five minutes at the end of every session. He said, just ask me questions. I just like to talk about this. And at the time I was getting into the height of my ultra running career.
So I would just bring in all kinds of nutrition questions and, you know, hydration. And I was learning as I was getting into the ultra marathon distances, you know, hypo nitremia and, and balances of electrolytes. And he could just go on and on. And one day I didn't prepare and I'm driving in, and this is back when younger listeners at the radio.
And I heard an ad advertisement on the radio for an antidepressant, and they go into the warnings at the end, a million miles an hour, but it's like, may cause suicidal ideation. And I was like, okay, I've never really thought about that one. So I bring in to the doctor, I was, I said, why can't an antidepressant cause suicidal ideation?
And then he goes onto this story about growing up in a cold area of Idaho where it was so cold it didn't. You know, didn't snow. And then it's the state of like, weather anhedonia, you know, and that then people, when they're in the state of anhedonia, they're so flat that then he said that you, if you put an antidepressant in their mouth for three weeks, you know, then eventually they'll lift their head up and realize, oh, everything sucks.
You know, I think I wanna kill myself. And he's like, so you gotta hurry up and get 'em up to this place where they're like, okay, life isn't good. But I can do something about it. And I, that just hit me with this aha moment of this baseline of emotions. And so the more that you're feeling gaslit and, and like you're crazy and, and everything you try and do gets worse, then I feel like your emotional baseline lowers and lowers.
But all these decisions you have to make are coming at you every day from the same place. So when I start working with somebody, it's like, just raise your baseline, a little little bit of self-care. And that can even, it doesn't mean you have to go run a marathon, but you might need to dream or hope or.
Listen to podcasts or start to read or you know, and it, it'll bump it up a little bit. A little bit and at some point you're gonna get a little, somewhere some traction. And now I can start to be, and do, and I can start to. Unfortunately, what comes next is stand up for myself, which then the narcissist is like, oh, thank you, you know, for the supply.
So now I'll, I'll engage in more of the gaslighting. But anyway, so the razor baseline and I say, get your PhD in gaslighting. Get out of unproductive conversations. Learn to set healthy boundaries, and for better or worse, set the time. Know that that a boundary is a challenge. For a, for a narcissist. And at some point, you know, it's like the person starts to shift over where, oh, okay.
I'm noticing now that he's pushing more and more buttons, I must be doing it right even though the buttons are bad. You know, I'll tell everybody, I'll pit the kids against you. I'll take your finances. And at some point doing these things and that person starts to go, okay, this, I see this is so consistent. But the fifth thing is the, the important one. Know that there's nothing you will ever do that will cause them to have that aha moment or the, or the epiphany. It has to come from them. And then you start to realize, I think when you put those things together, that it's, that the, again, it's why this is considered this human magnet syndrome or, or it's breakup resistant because the nice person will continue to try to give that person the aha moment.
That person is not taking ownership or accountability of anything because they develop their sense of self by just being whoever they need to be in that moment that gives them that one up or one down position, you know? And so every time you say, I think I get it, then they're like, oh, really? You do, huh?
Or in that moment they might say, you're right. I finally am gonna change. And then that alleviates everybody's discomfort until it happens again. And so that, you know, it just kinda repeats that cycle. So I start working with people and then I even they, they come in and they say, so I do these five things then, then everything will be cool.
And you know, first I feel like I was just kind of saying Sure. You know, but then really, you know, if they do those things, they get to the point where, yeah, it's like, okay, I, I deserve better. You know, this is something that I, I should not be a part of a human relationship. So, I forgot the question. yeah.
I love that. Is this part, was it the, it's good. Was it The intervention still, I think hit it. It was explaining narcissism versus emotional immaturity. Oh, yo, yes. We're not allowed, not alone. I say. Okay. Okay. So, okay, so then I'll make a, I'll make a very, very important point here now that I remember that.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, so, alright. So then when you get the emotional immaturity, narcissism, childhood defense mechanisms, this is the thing that I that I think is really fascinating and I am giving you guys a a breaking exclusive. So, are you ready? So these, there's these nerdy concepts that come next and it's so people that have these narcissistic traits or tendencies or emotional immaturity, they, they grapple with what we call whole object relations or or object constancy.
I don't know if, if you guys have talked about this or cuz but then, so I'm trying, you know, again, here's the exclusive, redefining these terms. So this, this whole object relations is like having this well-rounded view of yourself and others. So it means that you recognize. The, the good and bad sides of people, including yourself.
And what I think is, is really interesting about this is I honestly have a little bit of a challenge with even the concepts of good and bad. I know that might sound a little bit goofy, but, you know, but you recognize that people are doing and being themselves because that's who they are. And so then you, you know, the whole object relation is, is being able to take that in.
You know, that that's that, that is. That, that's just what the person is doing. And so again, it's like I, I'm start, I wanna call it the seeing the whole picture. So everybody, including ourselves is this mix of, of strengths. And, and again, I don't even like calling 'em flaws. I feel like it's realizing every person is this mixed bag of things, I guess.
Their thoughts, their feelings, their emotions, their expressions. And then, so there can be things that you may find so, Bothersome or annoying about a person. But, but they, they are, but you can see that whole picture. And then narcissist, sister, emotionally, imma mature people. Then also then struggle with this object constancy, which then is like described as I think keeping this emotional connection to somebody.
So it's all about holding those positive feelings for somebody even when they've done something that upsets you. Because, you know, if we wanna skip right to the path of enlightenment and we get our yoga mat and our ponytail, that eventually at, at that top of that, you know, mountain of Enlightenment, every interaction that you end up having with somebody is this amazing opportunity to, to self confront.
You know, what, what can I learn from here? Why do I so desperately want to continue to engage with this person that doesn't hear me? Or why am I trying to beg for this person to love me? And, you know, cuz it shouldn't be that difficult. So at some point it becomes, everything becomes this opportunity for me to self confront.
And grow. So the whole object relations are basically, you know, again, what, what I wanna start redefining that is, is seeing this whole picture of a person. So again, a narcissist can't do this. And then, and then keep this object, cons, or keeping this emotional connection because without that full picture of a person and then the emotional connection, then people with these narcissistic traits or tendencies only view people in black or white.
So, If you make them feel amazing, so everything they say and do is awesome, then you are awesome. But then if you even question anything between, you know, even if you just say no or really, why did you do that? Now they go to all or nothing, black or white thinking, and now you are worthless and you are defective.
I mean, it's, it's like watching a TV where it has two channels, you know, and you're just turning back and forth between one or the other. So, so when you start recognizing in a relationship that either, okay, everything's great, and then it's horrible, and then it's great again because when the narcissist then, you know, gets angry with you, basically what they're doing is they now need to get rid of that discomfort and they may need to, you know, burn the village down behind them.
Now they feel better, but you're left with, you know, being called horrible things or, or that sort. And then five minutes later they come in and say, so what's for dinner? And and so, and this is where I say on my podcast, often it's, it's, I call it the, Hey, do you wanna go ride bikes? You know, cuz it's like being a little kid and you get in a fight and then five minutes later, you know, hey, do you wanna go play?
But then we're, you know, the kind person was just told horrible things about themselves. And so they don't wanna go ride bikes. Then sometimes they feel like, well, he doesn't wanna go ride bikes, so I should, and then all of a sudden that kind person is betraying their own feelings and emotions and gut reactions.
And then that becomes part of this like, internal struggle. I think. So there's my long-winded answer of the, the spectrum of narcissism. Again, a, a great alternative band.
I like that. I think, I think we should start that band. Okay. I'll play the tambourine or the triangle. Triangle Triangulation. That's the thing in, that's, oh, nice. I'll play the triangle. Perfect. Very funny. Very funny. So how does someone who is exhibiting the narcissistic traits show up in a relationship?
Likes, why are they often so awful? It's so interesting because this is where that concept of like a trauma bond starts to, to creep in because how do they show up? It's like they, they, and I love the question because now they show up without that, you know, it, it, they don't see the whole picture. And so here, yeah, I love that you asked the question cuz I'm sitting, I'm saying, oh, so we must see the whole picture.
That's emotional maturity and then we can still keep the emotional connection. So then just look at the opposite of that. So how do they show up? Is, is if things are going, you start to recognize if everything's going okay. Than, than with them. Then, then everything's okay. The fa, everybody's good. But then all of a sudden, if they're upset now this is where I feel like the kind person in the relationship is like, okay, they're batting down the hatches and I, I gotta buffer for the kid.
Hey guys, mom, dad, they're upset right now. So like, you know, or they yell at the kid and then the. Kind parents like, you know, it's okay. She's just having a bad day, or he's just off today. And so you find yourself kind of buffering or making excuses. And then if you try to have that conversation of, Hey, I think that, you know, that wasn't great with the kid, then they're not saying, you know, you're right.
And I, I lost it and I need help. It's like, Well, you know, if you would, if you would've helped them more in the day, then they wouldn't have done that. Or well, do you know what he said to me? What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to tolerate that, you know, and you start hearing those kind of things. And, and so there's just this and then, and then when you try to bring things up, that's, I feel like when somebody's trying to give them the aha moment.
Or this epiphany when in a, in a normal human relationship, we can bring something to somebody and then they can look at it with curiosity. It might be uncomfortable, but they're willing to then have a, an adult conversation. And so I feel like that's the way it starts to show up. And then again, if you, if you find yourself in relationships where you continually feel like you are, You're crazy, you know, and you've brought things up and then all of a sudden that, that turned around on me and I, I didn't even remember saying that.
Maybe I did. And then you just start to then really feel like you aren't even sure if you wanna bring things up with your spouse. Then I feel like those are the, the red flags that because this is where I like to just say that everybody can have their own thoughts and opinions and emotions, and that is absolutely okay.
And so if you don't feel like you can start to express those, then, then there's, there's there's a, a problem in the relationship. So it's time to get help. And then if your spouse doesn't want to and they say, okay, well you can work on it. You go get help, do. I mean, and that's, that's okay because that's where I feel like then somebody even trying to force a spouse into.
Therapy as a couple's therapist, I mean, that's, that's not gonna go well. And as a matter of fact, it can actually even make things worse because if you really have an emotionally mature narcissist on your hands, now they're gonna go in and most likely manipulate the therapist or, you know, and then and then they get to say, see, the therapist thought I was right.
Or if you, if they try to pretend in a session that no, they're not who they are Man, unfortunately. Then you, they leave the session and now they say, okay, that was ridiculous. You made me look bad. You know, you, you shouldn't be saying those things. And so that's where you start to find out that couples therapy with an emotionally immature or a narcissistic person can actually be really damaging.
And that's a whole other topic because I, I find that a lot of the therapists that don't know how to work with this population can actually make things a little bit worse. Yeah.
That's good. So how might we know if we are in a narcissistic relationship, whether it be with a person or an institution? Hint, hint, all, all the doctors out there holler back at me If. Well, it's so, it's so if you really do start to feel like you, you are crazy, or if you start to feel like questioning your own sense of self or reality or worth, then I just can't stress enough that it's not you.
I mean, it's, you're, it's okay for you to have your own thoughts and opinions, and that's why I'm so. I'm so curious to get, I want to hear you guys talk about what that looks like in your profession. Cuz I, I, you know, just from seeing a little bit of some of our, the messages that we were trading back and forth, I, I appreciated when you were saying Okay, but whatever, you know, like the, I dunno, medical narcissism or what you have to do in med school or, cause I can understand, cause I've had people talk about that in in.
Like military where I have to do these exact things. I mean, cuz people's lives are on the line. And so I can really, I, I feel like that makes so much sense. And then, you know, maybe that's a topic for to come over on my podcast. And how do you, how do you maintain your autonomy or sense of self when there are ways that you really have to show up in a certain way?
But, but you know, this is, I think to that question, Kendra, I think this is where I, I start to say, all right, this is where everybody goes into relationships, I think. Emotionally immature and then, and an enmeshed, you know, codependent and enmeshed. And I do this with my hands. And, and so because we, we just, we're our, we're little attachment based creatures and we're afraid of being alone.
And so we, we are so prey to the love bombing initially. And so we feel like, oh, we are just so similar and we're on the same page. And cuz we're maybe at first we're both playing a little bit of that game of. Where if somebody says, you know, do you like, do you like sports? And the other person really doesn't, but I like this person and I don't wanna be alone.
So I'm like, yeah, I love it. Then I think to myself, I'll, I'll learn to love it. And so we, you know, may maybe we aren't even aware to of how to just say, to be okay with the discomfort of, man, I really don't, but tell me what you like about 'em. You know, that kind of thing. So then we get in there codependent and meshed, which, so then, okay, now we go through life and, and I can only imagine things like med school or people start to have kids or they move or there's financial things or, and so now is when here you are, this codependent and meshed little blob of a couple.
And now you start to have your own thoughts and opinions, which is okay. So in a perfect world, you're growing now to be interdependent instead of codependent, and instead of enmeshed, you know, you're differentiated. Where the reason I like doing it with my hands is differentiation is where one person ends and the other begins.
So you, you, you, I feel like accepting the fact that Oh, of course. Yeah. We're we, we just, everybody, we were the same on everything until we weren't. And now can we have those conversations? And cuz when you become differentiated, I, I like to say in the middle of that is a lot of invalidation and that's where the growth really occurs.
Or, or, I like to say we're so afraid of contention in our relationship that we avoid tension altogether and we just say it'll be better later May. Maybe we will, maybe I'll, it'll make more sense when we get outta med school or we start to make money or we have kids or you know, I get the cool car or we have the house, or I get the six pack abs or whatever.
It'll be better then. And, and so we're just, we're kicking the can down the road and then when we try to have adults. Conversations and they don't go well, and we do the, what's wrong with me and I'll, I gotta figure this out. And so then that's the way it starts to continually show up. So if you're seeing that and you have this inability to start to express your own thoughts and opinions, and it's okay again to have some, some tension because it's gonna be a little uncomfortable.
But if, if you don't have a partner that is, is willing to self confront or sit with some of that discomfort or hear you and, and be able to even say, okay, man, I didn't realize that, or, or that makes me uncomfortable, then that's where you start to know that you are in a. Unhealthy relationship. And I like what you're saying, it's with a person or an entity maybe cuz I and I, but I don't know what that looks like in your guys' profession and, and that's gotta be kind of fascinating.
Yes, that's a good word. It's fascinating.
Everyone. Stay tuned for part two, right? Everyone stay tuned. A little warming up here. Tony, can you remind us what the definitions of confabulation and gaslighting are? Yeah. So, you know, I, I did the classic because it's funny, I just like to, I go into story, story mode. I mean, cuz for confabulation, well gaslighting, I mean just by pure a good old dictionary definition kind of does sum it up.
Where know, psycho psychological manipulation of a person, usually over an extended period of time that causes the. The victim to question the validity of their own thoughts or perceptions or reality. And then they're that. And when you're starting to be questioned all the time what's really fascinating, and I feel like you guys as doctors would dig this as the or it's actually not something, it's, it's sad, but then the concepts around if you've been gaslit long enough so that your memory is questioned continually.
I have done a couple episodes on complex post-traumatic stress disorder where brain scans start to show it's the hippocampus that starts to shrink and the amygdala starts to enlarge in. And if you really look at that, like the evolution of the way the brain works is your own brain saying why, why send blood to the short term memory organ?
Because my memory is continually questioned and, and, and I start to, but, but my fight or flight response is there and it's not, it's needed. So, but then when people get out of those unhealthy relationships, then eventually they, you know, that can kind of reset. And and I've got this private women's Facebook group that has been amazing.
It's six, 600 women in there and, and they just, and there's some people that are very, Knowledgeable about this area. And there's one just I think she's a trauma nurse and, and do these, these group calls. And I've had her come on there a time or two and talk about all the stuff she's seen of the, you know, the, the way that your body shows up with long-term emotional abuse where you start getting into those things like conversion disorders and chronic pain and.
You know, the, your, your adrenal glands are shot. I mean, all those kind of things that I would love to hear you guys talk about over on my podcast, because when people get outta those relationships, then they start to, they didn't even realize that that was part of the, the body keeping the score or what that trauma looks like, you know?
So anyway, that was a big old, long thing about gaslighting. Confabulation is the most fascinating thing. Cause I think, you know, once you understand confabulation you, you can't unsee it. And I mean, and that's one where, so, I don't know. Do if we've got plenty of time. I wanna tell a very quick version of this story.
So Confabulation really is that. And I could go on and on about the mechanism of memory. You know, our memory is flawed. Our memory is adorable. We bring up a, a memory and then we fill it in with all the fillers and then, then we put it back away. And that's what the memory is. So if I say that, if I talk about going to Disneyland over Christmas, which I did, I had a great time.
I loved everything about it. Yeah, the lines were long, but we played games and we were present and, and we ate great. I ate chur, so many churros, all I ate, every churro in Disneyland, they had all these themed churros. So then when I put the memory back away, now next time I bring it up, it's like, oh yeah, Disneyland, the fun place with all the churros.
And then we played games in the lines. But if somebody has more of this negative disposition. Oh, Disneyland. Yeah. The Airbnb was a little further away than I thought it was, and there was a little dip in the. In the driveway and we had to go over the car, you know, crooked and I worried that the rental car would, there would be damage.
And so then I put the memory away. So then when we, we both went there, but now I, I think about it and here's the memory that comes back and every time I put it away, I pack it in with more good stuff. So then what the narcissist or emotionally Imma mature person does is that, is this concept of confabulation is when they bring out the memory.
And it is uncomfortable. They pack it in with all these things that it couldn't have been what you think it is. It had to have been this other way. And so then their reality, they can fate in real time. They can fate minute by minute. And so, you know, if if you said, man, you, you were never there for, you never showed up, you weren't there When, when I, you know, I've had women say so many stories about women in birth, you know, and the narcissist wasn't there because he didn't want to be, cuz he didn't.
And he went, you know, one where the guy went and grabbed food at a fast food restaurant, you know, and he was just gonna go do that real quick. And then he, we got on his phone and then he didn't pay attention. And so when we've tried to have that conversation in, in couples therapy, it didn't happen that way.
Couldn't have happened that way. Cause that would've mean he was a bad person, you know? So now he can confabulate the narrative and, and that narrative becomes real. That's why I talk about that mechanism of memory. So now it wasn't that way and he, and she keeps bringing it up that way, but, you know, he, he was there he just was in the other room and she doesn't remember it.
And as a matter of fact he thought that she said that, that she didn't even want him in the room. I mean, so he's created this narrative and so then, and that's where the gaslighting comes into play. So what's unfortunate is the narcissist confabulate this memory in real time, and then they believe it because that has to be the way it was, or that would've meant he did something wrong.
So when you try to then say, that wasn't the way it worked. It couldn't have been that way. So that is what happened in his mind, and that's why people can gaslight so well. And you just think, but if I keep talking about it, they'll go, wait, maybe you're right. But, and that's the thing I think is, you know, one of these people either don't know what they don't know, or if they've been confabulating since the day they were born because that was a survival instinct or defense mechanism, then it, it's, you know, I hate to sound like there's no hope, but then you, you're not gonna be able to talk that person out of what their memory was.
And then they don't have those tools to sit with any discomfort or self confront. So that's where the person just has to eventually just no contact or stop trying to even have those conversations. So, so that confabulation piece is, Is wild. It's why, you know, people I throw out like the OJ Simpson example of why I imagine he could pass a polygraph and a brain scan and whatever, and he couldn't have done it.
And now to the point where it's like, well, he didn't. So if you ask him about it, it's, you know, and that's all speculation, of course, of why of the confabulated piece. So I don't know if that makes sense or, or if you guys, what do you think? Yeah. So is, so is Confabulation the act and then gaslighting? Is it repeated over time?
Maybe? Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's and, and when I, when I talk about this I've got this one video that I did and I put it out in Think like, on, on my TikTok or whatever. And but it's, I took. So I have a client that will come late and then I'll, he'll say, I'm gonna be five minutes late, and then I think I'm hilarious.
And if he comes four minutes late, then I say he's early, late. If he comes six minutes late, then he's late. Late. So this was just a few weeks ago and I, I've, you know, been talking about confabulation and so then he says, Hey, I'm gonna be five minutes late. And I'm sitting right here and he, and he comes in my office, and then I look at six minutes after I say, you're late, late, he says, I'm early, late.
And then and then we ba we pull out our phones like it's a old west. You know, draw and, and then what I love, and, and so that's why I mentioned this. I put this on the, I did a screenshot of it and I showed that he actually said, I'm gonna be a few minutes late, but I had con, I mean, I was convinced, I knew he said five and I couldn't wait to show him.
Okay, you, you didn't say that. And he said later, he's like, no. I said, 10 minutes late. And then we look and it said, I'm gonna be a few minutes late, but if you would've again, put me on the stand. Polygraph or whatever. He said five, cuz I had confabulated this narrative based on previous experiences that that's what he says.
So, so this is the part where I, you know, you start to recognize that our memory is, is adorable and it means well, but you know, this is why, and I know we won't probably have time to talk about this today, but I've got these four pillars of communication for healthy relationships. And one of 'em is that you can't tell the other person they're wrong or that's ridiculous.
Even if you think what they're saying is wrong or ridiculous, because we're basically just both going off of memory. And so when a couple is arguing in my office about, it was Wednesday. No, it was Tuesday. Well, we were at the cabin and we were at the, you know, at the beach It, that's where at some point I used to think, well if we can figure out if they were, if it was Tuesday or Wednesday, then the rest will all fall into play.
But then you realize, oh no, it doesn't matter. You know, that's not what we're talking about. So then it's like, okay, anyway, you know, if you thought it was Tuesday, then I can understand. But here's, you know, here's really the meat of the conversation. So that confabulation thing is really interesting, and if you watch interrogation videos, which my YouTube channel was full of for a while, you'll see this just worked so perfectly.
Because if you have a, somebody that knows, you know, a skilled an investigator who now is interrogating a witness and they have data that the witness doesn't know, then when they said, you know, so where were you Thursday? I'm like, oh, I was at home. Okay, well we've got these camera that shows you here.
Oh, Thursday. I thought you said Wednesday. You know, I mean they just do it in real time and and it's really interesting, so, so yeah. I like what you're saying though, Amanda, the con, the confabulation is kind of just what that person is, their sense of self almost, which then leads to the gas lighting and why they absolutely believe that that is what happened and why they're so good at just.
They're not gonna give because now you are crazy. Now go back into that world of emotional maturity and narcissism and they really do now think you are crazy cuz it's not what happened, which then, you know, it gives them more fuel because you're the one that thought it was on a Wednesday. Like how, how silly?
Mm-hmm. It was Tuesday, you know? Yeah. I think it's fascinating. It's like, it's almost like a dissociation because they have such a fragile ego. They cannot accept that they made a mistake because, The shame, the self shame they flood onto themselves would just be incapacitating. And so they do this like basically creating alternative realities just as a survival mechanism for themselves.
Yeah. Well, Laura, what what's interesting about that too is I gotta this point where when I, you know, I feel like my own pendulum swung from when it went to the, everybody's a narcissist that then it really was when somebody would say to me, but, but I would say this thing. And I felt like for a minute he got it.
And I, and I was like, mm. You know, cuz later we're gonna find out, oh no, it was manipulative or whatever. But when you really learn about confabulation, you can see that there might be a moment where the guy will say, wow. Okay, that that would be bad. And you see that little moment, but then it's like in comes the confabulation, it's like, that's bad.
Well then I start to feel bad and so then it's like, but if you would've told me, then I would've done it different. You know, it's still your fault, you know, and that's where that confabulation piece comes in. So in, sometimes you can watch it kick in in a minute, or it might be the next day where, you know, I mean, I actually got, well, a text recently from a client and they were, you know, they sent me this big long text where they just said, you know, oh no, she finally got it.
She really did, but then by the next morning, then she was like, you know, honestly, the more I think about it, I, I kind of really can't believe that this is what we're talking about. And, and if you would've only done this, and then he's like, oh, there it was. So, you know. Mm-hmm. So I feel like it can either be immediate or it still is just this scale of not being willing to sit with any discomfort.
And so it couldn't have been them and it's you, which is one of those leads to that concept of a, you know, a narcissist apology. It's like, okay, fine. I'm sorry, I guess. Right. But, you know, but if I, I can't believe we're having the conversation. Actually, if you would've done this different, then I probably wouldn't even have to do this.
And so actually I'm kind of mad at you now for even bringing this up. Mm-hmm. You know, then that that doesn't go very well. Right.
Laura: I'm sorry, your feelings are hurt. Yeah, right. I'm sorry you felt that way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think we need a whole separate podcast for four pillars of connected conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. So we're, sounds good. That's what we're gonna do for that. Okay. But, Tell us what does it mean to raise your emotional baseline?
Tony: Yeah, so this is where it really, I, I like to say self-care is not selfish. And then I feel like self-care, again, we think that you have to go start a new career or, or, you know, join a gym or run a marathon and those are great things.
But I just feel like when somebody, I, I like to start bringing in this concept of emotional calories burned and trying to figure out, What is wrong with me? How do I make sense of this? How do I convince him? What do I, you know, how do I protect the kids? And all those things just zap your emotional calories and, and it lowers your baseline.
So then any, any bit of self-care helps any, I don't care if it's one minute of, of breathing in through your nose and out through your mouth. Anything you're doing that isn't ruminating, worrying, trying to, you know, fixate or, and it's for yourself. Is gonna raise that emotional baseline. And, and this is one of those where I, and again, I, I think I mentioned earlier that I, I will admit forever that I made this concept up.
But I feel like it is field tested now for well over a decade of, you know, it, it just moves the ball forward a little bit for somebody to just have any bit of traction that isn't. You know, I feel like this is so much exponentially better to have somebody just be being and doing something for themselves than worrying and ruminating and, and you know, kind of just that emotional, again, emotional calories burned and so, Then the reason I set it up that way is I, I also own that I have no data to back this up, and I'm talking to literally three doctors who can prescribe medication.
So when some people, when people say to me, you know, I, I don't wanna take medication. Should I take medication for depression or anxiety or anything? Then this is where I, I often will say, okay, well if your baseline is so low that you can't, and, and they're coming to see me and, and I can't get them to. To start a mindfulness practice.
I can't get them to even just go on a walk. I can't get them to just think or dream or hope. Then sometimes I feel like a, a medication will bump your baseline up just enough that you can now reach the tools and once you can start working the tools now, it'll raise your baseline up even more. So if the person then says, I don't wanna be on this forever, then okay, no worries.
Then, then let's just. Use medication to get you to the place where you can access tools, use the tools to get your baseline even higher, and then at that point, if you then want to get off the medication, then your baseline might dip a bit, but you've got those tools and we can work for you. We, we can look at that.
But then a lot of times that when people then, Get on a medication that will really help them for, for get raised that baseline. Then they'll start to realize, oh, I didn't even know I could feel this way. You know, this is, then it's like, well, why would I get off the medication if it's really working for me?
And so anyway, so I I love your thoughts on that. Cause again, there's, I have no data to back that up, but I find that that seems to work well. Cuz when people's baselines are so low, then they're saying things like, well, I shouldn't have to take a sleep aid. I, I shouldn't have to take an antidepressant or I don't want to.
And sometimes I'm like, Yeah, that's what it's gonna feel like when your baseline's so low that you can't, you can't access the tools that you need to to move forward. So dunno if you have any thoughts on that.
Laura: Yeah, no, I think you're exactly right. And we see it, you know, when, especially when we're dealing with our clients who are feeling burnout in their jobs, they're not wanting to throw away this career they've worked so hard for, but really they're.
They're experiencing a lot of challenges, and we say that burnout is 80% of it is institutional and 20% of it is us, and that's what we work on with our clients and, and that is that raising the emotional baseline because if you aren't doing the part that you can to keep yourself healthy, to keep yourself mentally, physically, spiritually, well, mm-hmm.
You. You're not gonna have any chance at staying in this career that is, is kind of stacked against us in terms of wellness. So, yeah. You know, you're, I think you're, you're not making it up. It's, it's absolutely right. It's kind of like we've, I don't think that there's randomized control trials about penicillin working.
It's just been there so long that. We know it works, so use it.
Tony: Oh, I like that, that Laura, I'm gonna now mm-hmm. You, you'll hear me then now. So let's go back to confabulation. I will now create a confabulated narrative where, give me six months and it'll be like, you know, like I've always said, penicillin, you know, hasn't, and then right.
And then, then people look back on this, and then I'll gaslight them and, and hilarious will ensue. But I will tell you one of the things I think is, is interesting, and I love the fact that I'm talking to three you know, women that are, that are medical professionals, that are doctors is, I still remember one of the first times I was.
I feel like field testing, the emotional baseline theory was a woman coming to me who, you know, from a high demand religion, and she said, I know I should not want to work. I know that is wrong. You know, I'm like, okay, says who? And I start throwing the emotional baseline out and I'm like, okay. But if you feel, if you like going to work and that, that gives you the, the strength and the validation and, and you feel like that is what your calling is and it gives you a real sense of self and purpose, then do you come home now baseline raised and now I'm a better, I'm in a better position to interact with my kids.
She's like, absolutely. And then that just, oh, I, I've used that so many times because, you know, if I, if I don't want to be a stay-at-home mom, but I'm like, but I have to. Now I'm getting into the world of it's called the socially compliant goal. It's from acceptance and commitment therapy. So if that isn't what I really matters to me, then my motivation is weakened and effective.
Cuz it goes against like my sense of self, my process of unfolding. So now I'm just, Having a day long full of experiential avoidance, you know, Hey, we got another hour, what are we gonna do now? And that person is losing their sense of self. So if they are going and to work and raising their emotional baseline, then they're coming home and they are just on fire.
And they may be now, you know, sending the kid to somebody that what their sense of purpose is, is to to work with kids. So, holy cow, what a, what a. Positive on both fronts. And then kids get their whole sense of self from external validation. So if their sense of self is watching mom kind of manage her day to try to get through it, then they start to then take on that.
Okay, I, I don't wanna upset mom, you know, but if it's like, mom comes home and I'm, and she's on fire and then, you know, the kids that caregiver that like, Hey, we, I love doing this. Then I feel like that kid's sense of self is gonna be based off of this. Oh, I can just be me. I can just be and do, I'm not trying to manage anybody's emotions.
So anyway, I thought about that when I was gonna come on and talk with you guys. Cause I just, I feel like that's one of the first times I really talked about the emotional baseline in practice. And and I've had a chance to interact with that lady some, I don't know, 13 years later. And yeah, she loves her career and her kids are well adjusted and it's good, you know?
Laura: Yep. That's, yep, that's an excellent point. So this is part one of this podcast series, but if anyone can't wait until part two to get more Tony over bay, which I, I, I highly encourage you to, Tony, you're putting out lots of great content all the time, including your path back course and marriage courses.
How can people find you?
Tony: Yeah, right now just go to tonyoverbay.com and hopefully by the time people start to look at this it, it will not just be a big old picture of me on the front trying to redo that whole thing. But yeah, I've got a lot of content and so I have the podcast, the virtual couch, and waking up to narcissism.
I've gotta waking up to narcissism premium question and answer. That's five bucks a month through Apple Podcast. And then that money goes to, to this. Help women in relationships with emotionally immature and abusive people to try to pay for the counseling and the court fees and those kind of things.
So, so that's where I try to get a little bit of, I'm the world's worst salesperson, but that's there. And then yeah, I've got the path back, which is a, an addiction recovery program that I really feel happy about. I've got the private women's Facebook group and I'm starting up a men's group as well for men that are, Feel like they're either waking up to their own emotional immaturity or they're in relationships with maybe the more narcissistic or emotionally immature women.
And then and then that Murder on the Couch podcast, which is the, I dunno, I've got three episodes out at the time of this recording, is with my daughter who's hilarious, and that's like the funnest thing in the world. So, but you can just go to tonyoverbay.com or find me on Instagram. And, and actually that same daughter is putting out all my TikTok content and that's hilarious cuz I don't know.
I, I thought I didn't care about that, but then it's, it's grown and gone kind of nuts and fun. And so I guess I'm a TikTok therapist as well, so you can find me at virtual couch there.
Amanda: So thank you Tony for this awesome wrap on episode one. We look definitely forward to episode two, and if you're interested in working with us, go to our website www.thewholephysician.com to find out more information and follow us on the socials for great content.
So until next time, you are whole. You are a gift to medicine and the work you do matters.